Posts by Cold Steel

56

A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...

by cedars in

glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.

it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!

article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!

Cold Steel

Depends on how you define "cults," mate.

The Romans considered the first century Christians to be members of a cult and used the term repeatedly in reference to them. They believed them to be secretive, cliquish and disloyal. Later, Nero used them to deflect anger over Rome's burning (and naturally the Romans believed him...we never learn). Cults originally said to be religions that broke off from other religions and added their own distinctive material to them. The Christians came from the Jews and added unusual and distinctive doctrines which now are taken for granted but then viewed as being strange and heretical. Three gods being one, God having a Son who also would be God, the Messiah not being a deliverer, the concept of hell, the virgin birth and so forth. Although the Christians pointed to various passages in the so-called "Old" testament, the Jews didn't buy off on the theology.

The Mormons are also considered to be secretive, cliquish and disloyal during its early days. It also added distinctive material and scripture, introduced newly "revealed" doctrines that many Christians find strange and heretical; and though we point to many Old and New Testament scripture we believe to support our cause (and who doesn't?), many prefer their own doctrines and traditions. And as Christians are discovering more about the Bible to prove its veracity, we Mormons are discovering more about the Book of Mormon that we feel is strong evidence of its veracity.

It's all point of view.

31

Invited to Attend a J W Kangaroo Court Proceeding: Tell Them to: Put the Reason for Requesting Your Presents in Writing Along With Any Alleged Charges of Wrong Doing, So You Can Give it To Your Lawyer.

by frankiespeakin in

by doing this the elders have to contact hq to get further instructions.

in many cases they will think it just not worth the red tape to proceed any further.

unless they concider you a real bad apple or threat that needs to be delt with in which case it should hold them off for a couple of months till they get direction from hq.. the wt is being threatened with law suits, they have to deal with big legal concideration of child molestation and other areas as the public is become less and less tollerant of wacko religions with abusive behavior.

Cold Steel

Two days after I sent Letter 1, I received a call from two the the elders of my congregation. They asked if I were formally disassociating myself. When I replied that I was not, I was invited to appear before them to face charges of apostasy. I sent this letter as a reply to that invitation.

This letter, while very well written, is not legally binding. You may request some of the itemized demands; however, they are not beholden to grant most of them. As far as recording devices, you can probably get around that by checking out some of the electronics websites on the Internet.

Also, please excuse my ignorance, but what are some of the things a member can do that would land them in this sort of situation? And in what way would they be expected to be false witnesses? Isn't that one of the things Christ was subjected to? Would they knowingly manufacture untruths or would they just bend the facts into prevarications?

With the new policy on the veneration of the Governing Body (Peace Be Upon Them), can not the church disfellowship a person legally, morally and theologically for disputing, questioning or showing disrespect towards them? As they see it, doing anything like that to them would be like doing it to the ancient apostles or even the Lord Himself. For example, there are a host of reasons a person might have for rejecting the doctrine that Jesus was the premortal Michael the Archangel or that Jehovah is not the Father, but the Son. Or that blood transfusions are a sin. But now that the policy has changed regarding the GB (PBUT), even disputing them can be regarded as apostasy and sin. Forget the part about them being self professed, self appointed, unordained blind leaders of the blind; they've still got you because of their binding declaration, even though it wasn't sustained or voted upon by the congregations. And I'm not sure, but do they ask you about the GB (PBUT) in their pre-baptismal questions? Do you have to agree to the doctrine of "from God's mouth to their ears"? It's like President Morsi in Egypt declaring his unlimited new powers. It was a declaration, not a proposal!

If it is not a court then it is not a Judicial anything, if it is a court it should act according to the standards laid down in the Human Rights legislation of various countries and by the U.N.

While I understand and sympothize with your sense of injustice over this, I hold the United Nations and other international organizations that infringe on the sovereignty of other nations to be, in themselves, illegal and contemptable. Our freedoms and rights in the U.S Constitution are the acme of justice and human rights, and while I concur that each country has its own standards for human rights, the edicts of the U.N. should never trump or interfere with the standards of other nations. The dictatorships will ignore them anyway. (The U.N. already is trying to trump the Second Amendment rights of Americans with its International Small Arms Treaty, and Obama, who didn't support it during his first term, is widely expected to support it during his second term. The treaty would require signatory nations to implement mandatory gun registration and overwrite state control of firearms. So that's why my negative tilt on this.) Not only that, but the U.N. has corrupted and screwed up everything it's touched since it was implemented. I'd just as soon as keep them out of the picture.

56

A Mormon becomes a JW in the Feb 2013 Watchtower...

by cedars in

glancing through the feb 2013 "public" watchtower edition, an interesting article appears on page 8.. here is the pdf download link.... http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=pdf&issue=20130201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=e&option=trgchlzrqvnyvrxf&txtcmslang=e.

it's interesting how, in the story, the young man's jw aunt and uncle switch him from mormonism to the jw faith using third-party material (the nov 8, 1995 awake!

article), and he ends up becoming a jw after confirming on the official mormon website that the claims in the awake!

Cold Steel

As a true blue dedicated “Mormon” myself, I have never known of any knowledgeable member leaving the church to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Atheists, yes. Agnostics, more so. We have a very complicated theology and, while it clashes at times with the dogmas and the creeds of “traditional” Christianity, it is far more defensible than the, comparatively, superficial theology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So I’m always suspicious when I read articles like this. And despite what some of you think, the LDS church does not engage in “mind control” any more or less than any other religion.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses do. As some of you have pointed out, we LDS are free to visit other churches, read religious material from any other church, pursue higher education (which is encouraged) and exercise the priesthood by baptizing our children and our friends, anointing and blessing the sick, blessing the emblems of the Sacrament and so forth. In our Sunday classes, we have a wide latitude in what we say without fear of some “elder” or “overseer” reprimanding or reporting us and there is no snubbing by family members and friends. If it happens, it’s because people are people; the church discourages it. In one of the collected revelations to the church, the Lord discusses the duties of leaders, advising them to “[Reprove] betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.” In 1963, church leader Hugh B. Brown stated: “Let us be very careful about this matter of reproving, and yet part of our duty is to see that there is no iniquity in the Church. Again I say, let us be careful how we trample on the feelings of our brothers and sisters. Let us lift them and bless them and benefit them...and never be guilty of humiliating them or causing them to think that we do not appreciate their work.”

We also do not publish articles criticizing other churches. Most LDS would read an article like that and become angry, and with good reason. Is that really what Bethel wants? Even when I went to BYU, one of my theology professors spent an entire lecture on the doctrine of soul sleeping. He spent considerable time explaining the doctrine as though he believed it. Then he spent about equal time explaining the other side and finished by explaining that both sides of the debate had merit, and that it was one reason that the Bible could not be interpreted except by the power of prophecy and revelation.

The bottom line is that people can read our doctrine and judge for themselves. We don’t tell our people not to associate with those outside the church or read or listen to the news. They advise against watching “R” movies, but if you do it, no one will reprimand you. In other words there’s a high level of trust. We’re not perfect, but we’re not what our critics say we are any more than what the critics of first century Christianity said they were.

If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to send me a message.

23

So ARE Mormons a cult?

by Found Sheep in

had a short, cuz i cut it off, conversation about mormons today.

she claims to be one.

before i knew she was my big mouth called it a cult.

Cold Steel

I'm a Mormon and can say, definitively, that we aren't a cult by today's standards. We don't exercise unreasonable control over our members, discourage them from higher education, forbid their free intercourse with members of other religions, we don't have a doctrinal snubbing, and we have both traditional doctrine and non-traditional doctrine. We also have a great apologetics arm at BYU.

We believe in the Book of Mormon, we believe in apostles and prophets as did the early saints. We believe they were called, ordained and commissioned to guide the church. We not only believe in life after death, but that we existed as spirits before coming here. We also believe that angels and men are of the same race and that all angels become men, live upon the earth and then return to God. As children of God, we believe that man can be resurrected to personages of glory and might. Also, that all animals and plants existed as spirits before they were made a part of this earth.

Many people who have suffered near death experiences have reported meeting not only people who had died and passed on, but people they knew before coming here. People don't remember their previous lives because of a veil placed over their minds.

BTW, the early Christians were accused of being members of a cult, not by the Jews, but by the Romans. They also were accused of secrecy and, in some cases, being stand offish.

If anyone has any questions on Mormonism, I'll give you straight answers. Just send me a private message.

As for ex-Mormons who say they are snubbed, I can tell you it's not church doctrine nor does the church in the least encourage it. Since we believe that marriage transcends death, many spouses resent it when their husbands or wives renounce their religion and become bitter against it. People are encouraged to make their sacred commitments before entering the temple. We believe in the family unit and when someone leaves, it destroys that unit. The spouse who remains faithful finds it increasingly difficult to live in the church with their children without the husband or wife who bailed on them. That may result in conflict and snubbing, but it's not encouraged by the church.

13

Are you sure you have not spoken to someone about Jehovah or the Bible for at least 15 minutes?

by Calebs Airplane in

how many here have had this conversation before (especially just before the week-long visit by the circuit overseer)?:.

brother irregular, i don't believe we've received your report for last month.

did you turn it in yet?.

Cold Steel

I believe Jesus is nothing more than a hoax cobbled out of some 18 different Gods that themselves were representations of the human soul, the sun, or both. And when I mention Jehovah, it is always that he is some type of tyrant that wants us in absolute enslavement.

That's quite a cynical approach to religion. Many believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same, and that the Father is not Jehovah. Why do you feel that as a historical figure, Jesus is a hoax...a myth? Do you believe the seven churches are fiction, too, or that the author of Revelation wasn't John of Patmos? A lot of people thought Troy and Mycenae were complete fiction, but when there is as much written about someone like Jesus, it's difficult to believe he was mere myth. I'm also impressed by the conversion of Paul, who saw a light and heard a voice. We do know that many of Christ's apostles, save John, died horrible deaths rather than renounce him, including Paul. Peter, Jesus' chief apostle, was condemned to death for not renouncing him and even requested being crucified upside down, as he didn't feel worthy to be crucified right side up, as Jesus had been.

When people so readily give their lives for their beliefs, it impresses me. Not the kooks who strap bombs to themselves, but people who preach as the apostles did, were persecuted and died bravely. The Christians also escaped the destruction of Jerusalem because Jesus had prophesied it, and they had been told by revelation to flee the city. Many of them went to Pella and other cities to the north and were saved from the city's destruction. Jesus also prophesied the destruction of the temple, and even though Titus gave strict orders that it be saved, one soldier threw a firebrand into one of the windows. Both the Jews and the Romans then ceased fighting there and together they tried to put out the flames. But it burned anyway. Jesus also foretold the dispersion of Judah from their land and also their restoration to that land in the latter days.

4

S.Q.R.R.R LESSON FOR AWAKENING JW'S AND LURKERS

by DATA-DOG in

survey.

question.

read.

Cold Steel

Which is worse, being a Heathen or being a Pagan? I'd rather be a Pagan, but I know nothing about motorcycles...and I hate beards and cheap beer.

4

The First Resurrection... When ?

by Poztate in

i posted something similar before but had few replies.

the wt taught that the first rez was in 1914 or was it 1919 ?

it was believed that franz, knorr, russell and all the dead anointed came to life then and were just hanging around aimlessly waiting on jesus.

Cold Steel

Jesus "came" in 1914, cast the devil and his angels to the earth and then, in 1919, chose the Watchtower Society as his future bride. Since he came in 1914, that's when the countdown began. One could say that 1919 was the date he chose the faithful and discreet slave (they've been so discreet that no one knew until earlier this year). As for the resurrection, that could begin anytime since 1914.

In truth, I believe the first resurrection began with Christ's resurrection. The scriptures speak about many of the bodies of the saints arose and went into the city and were seen by many. For most people, the first resurrection will take place when Jesus returns to Jerusalem during the battle of Armegeddon and it will continue throughout the Millennium. The second resurrection, or the resurrection of the wicked, will come at the end of the Millennium. Before then, however, the wicked on the earth will come together for another assault on Jerusalem. It, too, will be called the battle of Gog and Magog; however, the original battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 is Armageddon, the first battle of Gog and Magog. We know this is not the battle at the end of the Millennium because that battle will require a cleanup of at least seven years. The second battle will be brief and there will be no clean up, as Jesus will destroy the wicked, judge them; then comes the second resurrection. After that, every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. At that time, Jehovah will offer up the glorified and redeemed Earth with its hosts to the Father, and then we move to the next stage, whatever that is.

The "Armageddon" taught and expected by the Jehovah's Witnesses is fiction and completely unbiblical.

4

Baptismal Authority

by Cold Steel in

some questions about baptism:.

do the jehovah's witnesses accept any baptisms outside of their own authorized baptisms?as i understand it, any male member in the church can baptize.

if a father wanted to baptize his son or daughter, does that happen a lot?

Cold Steel

Some questions about baptism:

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses accept any baptisms outside of their own authorized baptisms?
As I understand it, any male member in the church can baptize. But do they? If a father wanted to baptize his son or daughter, does that happen a lot? Or what if they snag a convert? Can one of the teachers do the baptism? Does this happen a lot?
Where are people baptized? Can they be baptized in swimming pools? Or are there fonts in the various Kingdom Halls?
If you're a current or former member, what do you remember about the day you were baptized? How did you feel? Were there any doubts or did you feel exhilerated? (Some people feel a little cocky...they had the truth and everyone else didn't.)
If you're a current or former member, did you ever baptize anyone? If you're a current member, do you want to?
If you left the church, did you feel a need to be rebaptized into another faith? If so, which church did you join? Or did you become an atheist?

Finally....

What is the retention rate for those born into the faith? How about those who converted?

50

Baptismal Questions CHANGE AGAIN!

by raymond frantz in

i attended recently a circuit assembly and notice a change in the wording of the 2nd baptismal question .it used to be :.

"do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of jehovah's witnesses in association with god's spirit-directed organization?

now they changed it to :.

Cold Steel

The claims of the Witnesses have been all over the board since the beginning. They've never, ever, claimed to be led by revelation as the ancient apostles were; yet they've wanted to be thought of as modern apostles (meaning "sent ones"). As far as I know, none of them has ever claimed to see God, or an angel, so to claim being commissioned of God is not something they profess. As strange as it sounds, their primary assertion that they're God's church is humorous to many. Simply put, without any scriptures or purported revelations to back them up, they say that in 1919 Jesus examined all the religions of the earth. He then chose the Watchtower Society as being the one closest to the truth and he rubber stamped it. From then on, God and the church were formally engaged.

And ever since, they've been inviting everyone to the wedding!

It's almost impossible to get a one-up on God, but that year he found that he was engaged and he hadn't even bought a ring. And ever since the JWs have been telling everyone who will listen that the wedding date will be any day now. Go ahead and spend your pensions! You kids, don't even think of higher education! Millions alive will never die! And don't forget your meetings and tracting obligations!

How they can make the claim of Jesus inspecting the earth's religions is beyond me. It's not in the scriptures, and Amos wrote that "surely the Lord God will do nothing save he reveal it to his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7) The question becomes: Is the Governing Body as a whole a "prophet"? I don't know if they've gone that far or not, but they've come close to implying it.

25

How to handle it when a JW gives you "counsel" about some stupid crap

by Terry in

there is a catch-22 that can trip you up at the local kingdom hall.. .

if you receive "counsel" from an elder about any behavior at all and you "resist" or question the counsel you can be accused of having a "spirit of rebellion".. .

so, you have to either shut up and comply (with even the most ludicrous and ill-founded suggestions) or answer back and be chastised and "marked".. .

Cold Steel

Say this:

To quote a great man, "He who is offended when no offense was intended is a fool! And I'll tell you something else. He who is offended when offense was intended also is usually a fool!"